Should America go to war with Russia in the Ukraine?: A “hawk” and a “dove” debate U.S. intervention in the Ukraine

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Political Scientist-“Dove”: “Anyone ever hear of the Crimean War? Russia lost that one, but bloody for both sides. Everyone is saying Putin has annexed the Crimea because Obama was weak on Syria, but that perspective does not take into account America’s involvement in the Ukrainian coup, and the powerful political precedent that would be set in motion if a free and democratic Ukraine was able to block Russia from the Black Sea. The toppling of Ukraine’s President forced Putin to protect Russia’s strategic naval port in the Crimea, and to try to do something to offset a precedent that might lead to further internal revolt within Russia itself. Putin will never leave the Crimea now that his troops are entrenched, John Kerry says if Putin annexes the Crimea, the diplomatic option will be off the table, sounds like a stalemate in the making. And I’ve got news for Kerry and Obama, the Crimea has already been annexed militarily, now they are just waiting for the people of the region to rubber-stamp the move. Best option at this point is to use diplomacy to try to get Putin to recognize the rest of the Ukraine as an autonomous and independent nation, and leave the Crimean issue alone once the upcoming referendum reveals widespread support for Russian annexation. The EU will not support economic sanctions, because they are forever married to Russia now economically. So we can go it alone, to save face, and honor our treaty, but I don’t think we should start World War III because our behind the scenes political meddling forced Russia to annex the Crimea to keep their Navy accessible to them.

If Americans have gotten so used to having their Presidents throw America’s weight around, and semi-covert operations to topple pro-Russian governments in former Soviet nations (via funding & fomenting internal revolt) is seen as weak, and using diplomacy to mitigate the Russian response is now considered being weak (rather than surgical and intelligent), then the “big stick” mentality has become a liability for America. I say let them have the Crimea, not like they didn’t have a valid claim to it to begin with. Think of it this way, if Russia covertly assisted the state of Virgina in it’s efforts to secede from the U.S., and the U.S. military recognized the threat of an independent Virginia, and sent in a Federal force to secure Norfolk, Virgina to protect the U.S. naval base there, do you think it would be wise for Russia to start WWIII by refusing to let Virgina and the U.S. work it out themselves? Would it be wise for them to say, “diplomacy is off the table” if you try to annex Virgina back into the U.S.?  I realize these two examples are not exactly the same, since in my hypothetical example, presumably Russia had not made a treaty with Virgina to defend them from the U.S. if they got rid of their nuclear war-heads!  However, I hope you still get my point.

Ex-Marine – “Hawk”:  “Not sure I agree with your assessment. The Russia base is a lease from Ukraine. Honestly, if that was the intent of Putin, why be proactive and just wait for them to cancel the lease. I haven’t even heard there was a threat of them losing that base. The “free and democratic” Ukraine already existed that gave Russia the lease to begin with. Kind of like Gitmo to Cuba to the US.

That’s one of the problems with the world, not just today but in years past also, let’s just sit back until it’s convenient for everyone… That always worked against Napoleon, no I mean Hitler, no I mean Tojo, no I mean Stalin, no I mean surely it worked on someone.

It needs to be done now before it just gets worse. Imagine how less devastating WWII would have been had we stuffed Hitler at only Czechoslovakia. We bring devastation via procrastination.”

Dove: “So you think the Crimea is just his first step in trying to wrestle Ukraine back into Russian hands, now that America has shown such an interest in obtaining it for NATO?  We bring devastation via meddling, and then more devastation via more meddling, and then, perhaps then, when we’ve created really big messes, then we bring devastation via procrastination. Hitler was not empowered by a lack of diplomacy or a slow counter-strike, he was empowered by a WWI peace-treaty that economically punished Germany to the point that WWII was inevitable. Now we are set to economically punish Russia, with no support from the EU. That won’t work. So what, we invade the rest of the Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia with NATO forces now? Cold War part II here we are. 

Therefore, I don’t know if I can agree with your assessment either sir, because I don’t know how having the world’s two largest nuclear powers exchanging blows (even in a conventional warfare manner, with the assumption it could somehow be “contained” to only the Crimea region) mitigates things getting any “worse.” 

The only thing that will arise from the U.S. and Russia going to war with each other will be the eventual decline in power and prestige of both our nations, and the rise of China and the EU as the world’s new super-power replacements.

Hawk: “Putin is testing the waters. More will come if we don’t stop him now.

And let’s not forget, the elections that were held which elected the jackass that struck off this debacle, was orchestrated and influenced by Russia. Now the people of Ukraine are saying this is BS… To say we started this is a scape goat answer to imply it’s our fault.

We can’t live in fear of Russia. We must address this now. If force is necessary, then so be it. We have the power to do what is right or the power to do nothing. We lose world respect by doing nothing. We maintain our symbol of hope to the rest of the world if we do what is right.”

Dove: I can understand your concern sir, and can see how Putin might view the Crimea as step one, Ukraine step two, and all the former Soviet satellite nations step three. However, I can also understand why Putin is doing what he is doing, because there was a real threat that the democratic movements in the Ukraine could spread to “Mother Russia,” and topple his regime if he didn’t do something to counter the increased Westernization of the Ukraine. So I guess I just don’t see Putin as being as bold as Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, or Tojo, because his military action is a reaction to Ukrainian political instability, rather than a well thought out plan to regain the former Soviet Union’s previous satellite nations. However, now that things have been set in motion by the Ukrainian democratic revolt, I could see Putin grasping for a legacy he would have never thought possible only a few weeks ago.”

Hawk: “And we can’t take blame for WWII either. The German people never felt beat after WWI. The propaganda machines of the time indicated that they were just tired of war and that the Germans had fought the entire world to a draw. This had nothing to do with economics. They obviously had the funding to host the 1936 Olympics. That in spite of these crippling punishments you speak of… Not likely.

This doesn’t have to be a Cold War II. It was a Cold War because there was no direct war. Instead we fought each other through puppetry which killed thousands of innocent people. We are supposed to be the protectorate of all that symbolizes good in the world… As someone told me the other day that they were a ‘man of their word’ as they failed to follow through with what they said they were going to do… This made them a ‘man of their words’… Lets not be ‘men of our words’, lets be ‘men of our word’… Right, wrong, or indifferent…”

Dove: “Just because we are not shooting at someone or lobbing bombs into populated areas does not mean we are “doing nothing.” Doing “what is right” is not always so clear-cut sir, there is plenty of fault to spread around on both sides. Yes, Russia likely did put Ukraine’s president in power as a puppet of Russian interests, so when he got toppled, first reaction for Putin was to ensure Russian strategic interests were protected. The U.S. almost assuredly did fund the revolt, and offer other logistical support, the CIA has always been great about doing things like that. Regardless of whose fault this mess is, I just don’t want the U.S. getting into yet another costly war we can’t afford at at time when our nation is already hurting so much, simply to protect our “rep” as being tough.”

Hawk: “You think Putin doesn’t think the same thing: ‘time is right’ because he thinks we are tired of war… You bet your ass he does… What better opportunity? He doesn’t think the EU will have a spine if we are not there to hold them erect.

No country can ever ‘afford a war’… Champions are found in the ones whom finds the energy to do the right thing when everyone else is too tired to do it. We are the beacon that all people in the world see as hope of freedom whether it be via protection, financial investment, what have you… If we leave the Ukraine unprotected, we are just a puppet. We might as well send the Statue of Liberty back to France and tell them we just wanted to return their spines to them because we are tired.”

Dove: “I don’t know about you Jay, but I don’t remember anyone in Washington D.C. asking me to give my word to the Ukrainian people that I would come to their defense if they would give us their nuclear warheads. Also, just because Hitler was able to muster the funds necessary to create a spectacle like Putins, twenty or more years after WWI, doesn’t mean the economic conditions for the average German were not oppressive, and did not encourage a tyrant to arise from the ashes of Germany’s defeat during WWI. Most historians agree with my assessment of the Treaty, because my assessment comes from their conclusions. I agree we should always honor our obligations and treaties, but I think we need to be a hell of a lot smarter about the obligations and treaties we are entangling ourselves with. Because what you are describing, in your support of American military intervention in the Ukraine to honor our treaty with them, is exactly how previous World Wars have started. You are right in some respects though, we can’t live in fear of Russia, but it might be wise to have a healthy bit of respect and weariness towards them. After all, they are not the Taliban, or Iraq, they are a well trained, highly funded, and highly motivated military force, with an arsenal that is only matched by ours, and if we won’t to go toe-to-toe with the second biggest dog on the block, we had better be ready to accept the consequences of our actions (losing our Alpha status for good), if we want to go in all teeth and claws, instead of barking a threatening warning or two first.

War profiteers like the U.S., France, and Russia can probably already see the dollar signs floating before their eyes, and they are just waiting for an itchy trigger-finger to start it all up. Debating the issue will likely be a moot point before I even have a chance to set foot back in my own country. Call me self-interested in peace, but I just don’t want to have to try to figure out a way to get home to the U.S. with a newborn when we are at war with Russia.

Hawk: “That may be a bit extreme to return France’s spine… Maybe we could just send them the torch and ask them to hold it for us because we are tired..

Our elected officials signed that treaty… We are not a democracy, we are a republic. We elect people to make decisions for us… We sure as hell were elated as a nation when the fears of rogue nukes was resolved by this treaty in the 90’s… Now that it comes time to pay them back, well… ummm… Maybe we could… ummmm… Talk about this… ummm… treaty you know we signed… well ummm… you see… I mean… We were just joking.

If that’s the historians perspective of the post-war Germany of WWI, then I question they are looking at all the history. Germany wanted peace because their war machine was consuming all their resources. Specifically, food… The war effort put the German people into starvation. Once the German leadership began realizing that this would put their regime in danger, they decided the time was right to end the fight before the full might of the wars newest player, the fresh Yankees from across the pond, the writing was on the wall. Not to mention, seeing the impacts of the Russian Revolution, there was concerns of a Bolshevik movement taking grasp in Germany. And they knew the pot was right for Bolshevik soup. The German economy was improving but a mere 15-years after the war a man, whom had built his name in the years following the war during the tough times as a man of the people, came to power. The divide was just as stimulated by economy that they had been unable to recover well before the war ended as it was the rise of Bolshevism in Germany, concurrent activities.

I don’t want war with Russia. I hope Putin changes course for the better… However, if not…”

Dove: “Sir, thanks for taking the time to engage with me in the type of much needed debate our nation needs to have about this issue. I know at this point you would like to see less debate, and more action, based on your own analysis of historical past precedents, but I just see this issue more like the Cuban Missile Crisis I guess. The French have been selling the hell out of some guns, #4 globally now, selling to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations. Yep, our elected officials did sign that treaty, and we do live in a republic, so perhaps we shouldn’t rise-up as a mob and demand we go to war, but rather leave the whole matter up to them – “the people we elected to make decisions for us” to interpret, and implement the treaty as they see fit. So to use your own words against you, maybe you should consider cutting your “Commander in Chief” a little slack on this one. After all, he was elected to make some decisions for us, and maybe he is working with some “intelligence” you don’t have regarding various variables that warrant further diplomacy. Just saying…

Regarding, the causes of Hitler’s rise to power in Germany, I won’t claim to be an expert, I will just say when Germans had to use wheel-barrels of German marks to pay for a loaf of bread, conditions became ripe for Adolf to put down his paint brush, and start playing God.

A Texas “Tea-Partier’s” opinion thrown into the mix for good measure – “Tex”: “No surprise here, Russia has been doing this sort of thing for 100s of years back in the days of the czars. Putin got a little piece of Georgia a few years back. Now the Crimea. Any time there is unrest in any former Soviet countries they will use the excuse of “protecting the ethnic Russians” as an excuse to send in troops and annex. Stay tuned, you shall see this again with other border countries.”

Dove: “I agree with you Tex, I just don’t know if having NATO bomb them back to their original borders will be the best solution for all parties involved in the short or long run. However, I also know the old proverb, “give them an inch, and they will take a mile” too. So it is a catch-22, if we don’t react with hostility or the real threat of hostility to counter Putin’s aggressive moves, then we face an ever-expanding Russian empire, and a President Obama and U.S. appearing weak in the face of a strengthening Putin/Russia. On the other hand, if we use force against Putin for protecting Russia’s bases, we justify his logic to his people, and we place ourselves in yet another costly war that could have possibly been avoided with a grand political and economic compromise. Some will always use instability for their advantage, some will always use force first, and diplomacy last. Some circumstances call for force first, and diplomacy when possible, I just don’t see this as one of those circumstances at the moment. I say if the EU aren’t too worried about it, then let them deal with it. We’ve got our own problems at home to worry about, and it is immoral to use war profits as a viable economic stimulus package for improving America’s economy.”

Hawk: “Understood. However, we are a republic, which further means, they are elected to carry out the will of us… I just want them to know, my will is to not back down from our word… It may be all we have, but, let’s not let anyone take that away from us.

And this C-in-C will get no slack from me until he proves he’s got the mettle to earn it. One thing you learn as a member of the military, sometimes you have to walk 100 miles with everything important to you on your back and then fight when you get there… There’s no time to rest, no time to sleep… It’s walk 3-days and then attack… No timeouts, no ‘give me a second’, no halftime show…

And this POTUS spends more time reviewing “intelligence” gathered internally than externally… I figure I just tagged him in this post. And since he’s now reading this… Mr. President, put troops on the ground in the Ukraine and be prepared to use them if you want peace.

You already believe his rhetoric… It’s not about protecting Russians in Crimea, it is not about their leased base from the Ukraine… It’s about Russian power. Nothing more, nothing less.

Putin’s statement is this:

“ATTENTION ALL FORMER SOVIET-BLOCK COUNTRIES:
You will remain pro-Russia or else! The world is NOT going to protect you! Resistance is FUTILE! That is all…”

Dove: “I guess giving the go ahead on Seal-Team 6 gave him no street cred as having the mettle to make tough choices, and earn your respect, or any other military members respect? I know the first day or so after Osama’s assassination he looked pretty credible, but then again, it didn’t take the far-Right long to spin the “rally around the flag” affect away from him. For the record, I believe very little of what comes out of Obama’s mouth, and I agree with your assessment about it being about Russian power. I would just add it is also all about America’s projection of power and prestige abroad too. We have to be seen as doing something about Putin’s grab for power on the other side of the world, or America is somehow now perceived as too weak to respond to international events. It would appear if we are going to be the global policeman of the world, we have got to respond to every 911 call (even if it is just a cat in a tree), or we are not doing our job. Where is the U.N. or NATO in all of this?

Sir, I agree with your perspective on Putin’s statement to the former Soviet-block countries, but I also think Putin’s assessment is accurate. That is all…

Tex: “That sums it up. Russia has historically used satellite countries as a buffer to protect their borders. Only thing is there is really no country in Europe that is a threat to them. Only thing that may slow their annexations down is if they piss off the border countries like they did the Chechnyaians and wind up with terrorists coming at them from all directions.”

Hawk: “We are the UN and NATO… Without us, they are nothing! We did not sign up to be the world’s police, we are that by de facto! We are not alone on this planet. We became hope because we project hope. We became a world power because we started out by standing up to a force that had never been beaten. And we beat them! We gained our freedom by spitting in the face of perceived evil… We became hope when we won our independence.

Obama sending in ST6 to get Osama is not an act of mettle. That’s not a tough choice… It’s ST6 moving against a soft target inside a country with a weak military. Of which, I cry BS when they say Pakistan did not know we were coming. That was their rhetoric to protect their regime.

And it is a fact, when we are perceived as strong, we invite less trouble…

Putin’s assessment is we are tired and will do nothing… I hope his assessment is wrong. Otherwise, our children will pay for this.

PS… “That is all…” was not directed at you… When an announcement is made on military ships, they end the message with “that is all”… I was making a military reference to his statement. Which is what he is doing…

Dove: “I am familiar with the term. I think I used it correctly per your last remarks.”

Hawk: “Hard to read sometimes…[on a web site] Just wanted to make sure you knew…”

Dove: “They are nothing, because we over-power them, and as you say, we are, “the UN and NATO…” When we spend more than the next 10 industrialized nations combined, yes, by de facto bankruptcy inducing defense spending, we are also the world’s policeman. And you are right, many Americans “did not sign up” to pay for America to have the most bloated, costly, and domestically destructive military might ever seen in this world since the Roman Empire. After more than 10 years of war, with all the military personnel deaths, all the personal sacrifices you know of personally, all the physical and mental ailments, the PTSD, the economic costs of the last two wars, Putin’s assessment is accurate. And maybe you are right sir, maybe our children will pay for our lack of military action now, but Americans will not stomach another war right now unless they are firing at us on our own soil.

My “that is all” was not directed in a negative way towards you either sir, just used for emphasis.  I can argue with a man without feeling the need to tear his head-off, and… well you know the rest.

Hawk: “We lost more than 100x the number of casualties in WWII yet still stomached the Korean War… We lost more than these wars combined during the Normandy Invasion alone… We are not tired, we are not weak…

Back on mettle, mettle is earned by doing the right thing when you have the most to lose. A Marine diving on a grenade to protect his fellow Marines… That is mettle. A soldier running across an open battlefield to rescue another soldier that is trapped, wounded, or KIA… That is mettle. Choosing to engage an enemy whom might be strong enough to whip our ass because we said we would… That is mettle. Notice the similarities… All actions not words.

Being popular and doing what is right is not always the same thing… In fact, they rarely are…

If a few thousand deaths and injuries over a period of 13 years is enough to make us weary, then maybe the Greatest Generation is right in their assessment of latter generations… I still boldly say they are wrong!

The generations of Americans since and to this day are just as strong a force as they ever were… We are still great! We just need great leadership to show us. The irony of a republic is… We elect those we want to be led by and become what we are led by… IF led by the strong, we become the strong… IF led by the weak, we become the weak… IF not led we become chaos… This POTUS is the latter 2…”

Dove: “America had five years to catch their breath between WWII and the Korean war, we have not had that yet. It is not weak to be weary of war, it is wise. Less ego, and more thoughtfulness, will get us all much further down the road than will violence. Americans are still great, and we do have the strongest military a generation’s-worth of tax money can buy, but I bet the Middle Class is wondering where all that money went. Likewise, if I have any say on who gets elected in the future, I would rather be led by the smart, so we can become the smart, but I will readily admit your assessment of our current POTUS may not be too far off the mark (especially on #3).

Regarding the Obama mettle argument, I will concede defeat on that one, before I will waste my time trying to defend Obama’s military might based on that one example of decisive decision making. But I will say we could have used some of that from Hillary on Benghazi. I agree being popular and doing what is right are rarely the same thing, and America’s government/military lost the popularity contest in many nations a long, long time ago. However, I have to admit, I can’t help but be a bit apprehensive about just how “great” our generation (or rather the Y generation) really will end-up being rated. If, and/or when political and economic circumstances conspire to compel Americans to make the ultimate sacrifice yet again, and to send all these new college graduates living at home (who can’t find work) into the fog of war to test their mettle.

Don’t get me wrong, I think we are still a great Nation, with many tough, hard working, Americans filled with a strong work ethic, patriotic values, and character, but most will readily admit a lot has changed in America since the Greatest Generation were kids. We now live in a “dole-State” America, with a generation of people who have become dependent on handouts, and who do not have the values, character, and principles that made this country great. America is ready to tear itself apart already, it does not need another war to create the last straw that broke the camel’s back. If it was a war where we were being attacked on the home front, like 9/11, then I could see us all coming together for a time to “fight any foe,” but on something like this, it will just further tear us apart.

If we are going to project an image of hope, power, and wisdom abroad, then we have to act deliberately, not fall on the grenade for a country who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about us.

We are already sending them $1billion of our hard earned tax dollars to keep their crumbling economy afloat for a few more weeks, do we really need Obama’s pivot to Asia to start in the Ukraine, and to mean the beginning of the end for all we’ve once known and held dear? Why do I have less confidence in a positive outcome from war. I don’t think a majority of our Nation’s people is of the same mettle as previous generations in many respects, they do not have the religious convictions, the work ethic, or the tenacity to endure hardships in a civilized and peaceful fashion like those of previous generations. Then again, previous generations also show a tendency towards chaos when sacrifices and rationing become a reality. So I guess what I am saying, is that history reveals that when domestic issues arise within a nation that cause it to be on the verge of collapse, a war campaign abroad to enrich the coffers is not always the best way to preserve your empire.

Hawk: “The smartest Presidents we have had by straight up intelligence have all been do nothing Presidents. Carter I think is still the highest in measured intelligence. Hard working, strong men have always made the best. The smarter they are the less they are to take action. They seek the ever elusive perfect answer. A good plan today acted upon is always better than the perfect plan tomorrow.

As for the rat’s ass, if they were the only ones watching, this may be true. But I assure you, they are not alone.

And for timing, in WW2, we suffered more than a million killed or wounded in 4 years. In the 14 years of these wars combined we have had just under 60 thousand from the last numbers I saw. Not to downplay this war’s significance of sacrifice, but, it’s a bit less. Actually, a lot less. In fact, 4x less per yearly average of WW2. Korea saw 2x more total during its 3-years. It’s perception at play here. WW2, we were attacked. Korea, we were not.

We need to suck it up! Tired… This we are not.”

Dove: “Sometimes, there is something to be said about being a “do nothing” President, it can on occasion lead to times of peace and prosperity that allows citizens across the nation (and people across the globe) with the chance to pursue happiness and the freedom to live their lives in peace. Conversely, I understand it can also get us invaded, captured, tortured, and killed, if we don’t recognize when we have fallen in the proverbial “frying pan” on our way to the “fire.” So I guess it is just a matter of where you see America in that equation currently. How big of a threat is the loss of the Ukraine to Russia a threat to our nation’s power and prestige both at home and abroad, and is it worth tearing the country apart to honor that treaty?”

Hawk: “Assuming tearing our country apart is a real threat. We’ve been in worse pickles.”

Dove: “I can see the actual loss of the Ukraine to Russia as a superficial wound at best to America, but I see the greater risk being the perception of increased power and strength that this move by Putin plays on the international stage. Although our reputation has already been hurt abroad by NSA spying and other revelations, it would appear we are nonetheless still very worried about the bottom-line power perceptions. But this is not surprising, because after all, irregardless of whether we are loved or not, “it is always better to be feared, than to be loved” – (Niccolo Machiavelli). I think that captures the “popularity” vs. “doing what is right” comments you made earlier sir. It is unfortunate however, that ever since the Edward Snowden revelations about the NSA, and the excesses of the Patriot Act have come to light, along with the ever increasing Socialist agenda, and an ever encroaching military-industrial complex agenda bent on primarily enforcing the WTO, the IMF, and other NWO goals, it would seem “our government” appears to be taking the same Machiavellian approach domestically towards us as it is towards it’s enemies abroad! And so until we get the whole 13% Congressional approval rating thing all sorted out, and the $17 trillion dollar deficit thing sorted out, and the 47 million Americans on Food Stamps thing sorted out, the last thing America needs right now is another war to further the great divides between Secular-Humanism/Science, and Religious-Christian/Creationism, or between our unlimited Federal Government and “We the People.

And to address your last remarks specifically, tearing America apart for the third time might be the last straw though sir, and do we really want to be the generation to watch as they report on the news the beginning of the next Dark Ages?

Hawk: “I appreciate your views but there is never a best time. There is only what we do this time. That is all that ever really matters. Our actions are always judged by what we do, our reactions are judged by what others think we won’t do.”

Dove: “Yes, exactly, so that is why we must do the right thing, and in a deliberate way, rather than “shoot first, and ask questions later.” If we can take a calm and measured approach to the situation, and ratchet up, or ratchet down our surgical responses to the changing conditions on the political and/or economic “battle field,” then perhaps we can still pressure Russian leaders to get their Russian soldiers to get back in their trucks, and drive their asses back to Russia. If not, then perhaps war will be inevitable, and necessary, but until every possible avenue for peace is pursued, I say the best we can do this time is strive to find a diplomatic way to preserve the peace until blood is drawn, and then if we must react with violence to protect the innocent from those who would injure them, then so be it, war it is… If America really wants to be the policeman of the world, then that is the price we must be willing to pay for such a title. We must be willing to fall on the grenade for the Ukraine, or for Syria, or for the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or for the South Sudan, or for Libya, or for any other nation that would likely stab us in the back if given half the chance.”

Hawk: “Nobody negotiates with the police until the police are there, correct?”

Dove: “Yes, I see where you are going with that, and yes, I suspect that is coming, and yes, I don’t suspect that will go down well with Putin, and yes, it may very well escalate the entire situation to the point where war is inevitable anyways.”

Hawk: “Or…”

Dove: “Or, we can send in a community mediator to stand between the two factions, keep the peace, and keep us out of WWIII.  U.N. to the rescue!  Isn’t that their charter anyways, to keep messes like this from spiraling out of control?

Hawk: “My or was to what may come of it.

Or… They could come to their senses and this all end peacefully knowing that American is “a man of its word”…

Teddy said it best… Speak softly and carry a big stick.

Again, the UN has no power without us.

How many small kids can talk their way out of a beating from a big bully? Very few. They tend to have to just run or avoid them… I was a small kid… Talking generally got me no where.”

Dove: “I know they are an ineffective organization most of the time, but I for one would be much more comfortable with U.N. peace-keepers going in there and resolving the matter, rather than having us storm in there and make matters worse. Of course, I do realize a small group of EU observers and international monitors were recently turned away by gun fire, but if they went in with their blue-helmets and tanks, that would be a different story. Mark my words sir, if we go anywhere near there with NATO, or with U.S. armed forces, it is not going to turn out good for any of us, and the next generation of kids will suffer and have to pay for that one too. It won’t be a simple misunderstanding cleared-up, it will be a long, protracted, and deadly war that will likely generate the kind of “1984” Orwellian hell George Orwell warned us about back when the first threat of a Communist dominated world was sweeping across the globe.

I was a big kid, so talking usually got me out of most fights, and big bullies didn’t bother with me for the most part. It was only when I would go up against a small guy with something to prove that I ever felt threatened, because you couldn’t reason with them. They had a chip on their shoulder, and an inferiority complex, so talking your way out of a fight with them was often futile. Violence generally gets no one anywhere, because whether you win or lose, not everyone comes home with just bumps and bruises, but assuredly, everyone’s feelings get hurt. If they all play nice, we will all stand to make lots of money, if they lead us to go to war, they will still make lots of money, but conversely, we will stand to lose everything.

Regarding the Ukraine, “Tex,” sir, you are both right, all the Ukraine situation is about is the old-guard of the Kremlin wanting to regain what it has lost, at a time when it perceives America as divided, weak (or at least war weary), and more prone to use diplomacy over force to resolve conflict. I understand your desire to see America forceful at this time to project American power and resolve to our commitments abroad. All I am saying is that America doesn’t have the stomach, the resolve, or the “fire in the belly” to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine at this fragile time in our Nation’s “Recovery” from the 2008 Great Recession.

We are a house divided, and the American peace movement, the environmental/global-warming movement, the Occupy Wall Street movement, the anti-nuclear movement, the ACLU, the Libertarian Party, and various other political and economic factions will not just sit by and watch America get entangled in yet another Great War without putting in their two cents against it first. Of course, all those groups have been ignored before, and it has never stopped our government from making poor decisions, by often ignoring the wishes of a majority of the America people’s perspectives, because our leaders think they know what is best for us.

I guess it just bothers me that when it is a President like Obama doing the leading, he is the one you all think should grow a spine, the person whose reasoning and military decision making gets second-guessed or ignored, and whose leadership is utterly disrespected by those who should know better than to discredit their commander in chief while still serving.

But when it is a Republican in power, so many appear to believe it is all those political factions of people with valid concerns about war, and legitimate arguments against it, that should be ignored or oppressed for speaking out against the war machine. I find that tendency in American politics, and within America’s dynamic relationship between it’s president, it’s military, and it’s people to be troubling as well. Where is our voice in all of this?

If we elect a President we hope will finally be our voice after decades of voodoo economics and out-of-control Cold War spending, our votes only reap disappointment and betrayal. If American’s rise-up, and try to be the change they want America to be, they get pepper-sprayed, water-cannoned, attacked by dogs or the police, arrested, and then lose their right to vote or carry a fire-arm for protection. America already appears to be at war at home, and abroad, it is only a matter of semantics regarding what we call the new covert or overt nature of those wars. So my only point is, if we wish to continue to project power abroad, perhaps it is past time for us to try to put our own house in order, before we go starting World War III by “invading” the Ukraine for it’s own good.

I guess the counter-argument is that we can do both at the same time by using the historical approach, wage the war anyway, but with the government waging war at home simultaneously against all those who would question their authority during a time of war. 
And they have the audacity to wonder why the American people’s trust in government is so low these days!  Half the time, half the nation is labeled as would-be terrorists, so lucrative war profits can be made, and America’s massive egos can be stroked, while their notions of honor and chivalry are quenched by the blood of those trying to avoid war. 

Or, perhaps it is all just a matter of national honor, and there really are no hard feelings against those Americans who would rather not be cannon fodder for some oligarchical “nobleman’s” mad schemes to dominate the world. But I figure, many now see most political opposition against the military-industrial complex’s NWO agenda as being a poison that America must be cured of, before it causes the entire Nation to become “rotten to the core.” Thus, I portend far more conflict inside America in the future as a result of international issues such as this one pulling Americans further apart in their political views and loyalties when tested. I would prefer to be wrong, but I am very afraid I will end-up being right.

Least we forget,it was a political protest against a corrupt, unresponsive, and tyrannical President/establishment bankrupting a fed-up people’s country that started this mess in the first place. There is a lesson to be learned somewhere in there I think. Hope we get a chance to learn it before it is too late. 

A return to “Cold War” thinking will get us nowhere, but back into another Cold War, or worse. At a monumental time, when the world is closer together than it has ever been, due to technologies like global communications satellites, Wi-Fi, smart-phones, and the internet, it behooves us to think outside of the box, and find a better more viable long-term solution to problems such as these. We should use our heads, rather than our fists, because we need not resort to animal instincts to resolve all our complex international global political and economic problems.”

Hawk: “I was a small kid. Rarely, did I go looking for trouble. What I found though, was trouble would sometimes find me. I was confident. This made me a target to some bullies. What I found was, if I backed down or ignored the bully, they just came back. If I stood my ground, it would be finished. Sometimes I took a whooping, sometimes I dealt one, and sometimes… I didn’t have to fight. If they knew I would, they would back off as long as I gave them the ability to do so and they could remain a punk with face. But either way, never had to face that one again. Even in loss, I had a better situation.

Bullies don’t stop until bullies are stopped.”

Dove: “I  guess you have a point there Sir, now it remains to be seen if Putin is really going to continue to act like a bully, or if he is going to turn out to be a “punk with face.”  President Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping seem to be getting somewhat chummy over their unhappiness with Putin as of late, so perhaps this whole mess will lead to improved U.S. relations with China!  If the Japan and Philippines territorial disputes at sea can eventually be resolved, then Putin may yet be put back in his place by a American-Chinese-EU coalition.  Guess we will soon see, but is does appear Obama is attempting to garner support for his plan (whatever it is) from Great Britain, Germany, France, and now China. So we can expect to see a reaction to Putin’s annexation of the Crimea soon, probably just before (or likely just after) the Crimean referendum to join Russia this weekend. 

But despite all the hawkish battle cries, the U.S. probably won’t be putting troops on the ground in the Ukraine unless Ukraine soldiers actually get fired upon.  Instead,  the U.S. will probably engage in some form of stern warning, with economic sanctions, and with NATO troops setting up defensive positions in and around the other former Soviet-block nations.   Also, symbolic political war is already being waged, because the American Air Force attending Polish military press-briefings (in the front row), President Obama formally showing American support for the new Ukrainian President who came to power after the Ukrainian revolt, and having key American diplomats visit the former Soviet-block nations leaders are all peaceful political tactics that send a clear message of support to the Ukraine people in the face of Russian aggression as well.  With these tactics, President Obama is making it clear to President Putin, that if Russia continues it’s “intervention” in the Ukraine, the U.S. and other foreign nations will “be forced to apply a cost.”  This is how the “game” of international politics is “played,” if you want to pressure a rogue nation into following agreed-upon international laws, but don’t want to start WWIII by waving your “big stick” around.”

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