Liberalism v. Libertarianism: Is the Answer More Government or Less?

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Libertarian: “How can Democratic Socialist and Progressive principles be implemented or supported by citizens living within a political system that is untrustworthy, corrupt, and prone to totalitarianism?

Second Question: How can Democratic Socialist or Progressive principles be used to clean-up the system and make the government more responsive to citizens needs, if inevitably such principles when abused lead to the”free-rider” problem, unlimited paternalistic government, and inefficiency?

Third Question: If Democratic, Progressive, Socialistic political and economic structures can only work if people for the most part are “good,” and are all doing the right thing for everyone involved, and no one is abusing the system, then how can anyone believe any government will ever successfully implement the Democratic platform?

I can see it being implemented by individuals living free, via their own accord, but I just don’t see any government system getting the job done.”

Liberal: “The first part really comes down to our fear of govt / untrustworthy and corrupt like you said therefore it becomes that much more difficult to fully implement in this society – if we could restore faith in govt buy taking things back to true Republic principles and end the concept of lobbying and career politicians – if we were truly represented in govt then there would be no reason to fear govt – WE would be the govt. 

Which leads to the second part, How – my thoughts are a concept that I initially rejected outright as ridiculously expensive, yet I came to realize how expensive (public money) the current systems are – treasury robbing and tax code manipulation to begin with – I advocate public financing of campaigns – take away their campaign money and congress people will be like rats leaving a sinking ship – once we get a govt of the people by the people, ideally any programs created would push for full employment and any “safety-net” type programs would need to be designed to put a person back to being a productive member of society – welfare of any kind would be temporary not a lifestyle – if we drop the retirement age we would effectively lessen supply of labor and drive wages up.  Pushing younger people into jobs would also use public universities to invest in our young workforce, giving free university education or trade type schools.

Part three, I don’t think it’s a matter of only working if everyone is “good” but possibly with great changes in who controls our govt and methods of oversight – prior to early 1900’s corporations could only exist for a finite period of years (how long depended on the state of incorporation typically no more than the life of a person) so after this the corporation had to dissolve or go before a panel that ruled on the ability for the corp to reincorporate – death sentence for corporations – the main criteria for a favorable ruling was – did the corporation while working for it’s own best interests did they also work in the good interests of the community in which incorporated in – no more incorporating in one state but primarily operating in another And straight up operating to the detriment of the community – I guess my point is that for many years this country had checks and balance elements within it that provides a method to reduce corruption, yet these safeguards have been eroded over the years.

I don’t really know if we can successfully implement any true platform of progress until we change our thinking to reflect the importance of incentives for the individual to be more productive while also reflecting the concept that we are all in it together – cliché yes, but true.”

Libertarian: “You almost have me believing in Liberalism again, congrats. If I could only get past the problem of implementing the necessary reforms you mentioned, to accomplish your stated goals. Another suggestion, rather than funding election campaigns, shorten the process, air them on NPR, and PBS, give them equal time, but make them short, sweet, affordable, and get money out of politics.

The Supreme court case that ruled money is speech must be overturned, corporate reform and the return of a corporate death sentence would be great – “too big to live” could be the new motto, since the monopoly laws have been ignored and violated since the Reagan years. Clearly, though, none of it will happen unless the people push the government into reforming itself to avoid outright revolution and a coup.

I guess if we could get the government to follow it’s own rules again, it could work for awhile, until government leaders recognized no one was watching again. At this point, I get the impression the government enjoys having the people dependent on social services so they can keep their thumbs on them. I don’t think FDR ever intended to have the Fed use SS or any other social program as a means to repress a segment of society, and keep them subservient to the government’s every whim.

It is complete chaos out there now, and nothing our government does surprises the average citizen anymore. We can find out our Secretary of State has just arrived in the Ukraine, and is going to be handing out $1 billion dollars of American tax money in fuel subsidies to off-set their crumbling economy due to Putin cutting the flow of oil to their country, and everyone in America is too busy watching their favorite zombie show to take notice or express any outrage that their opinion was not considered before such a substantial amount of their money was given away! And as they say on that show, “We will never get things back to the way they used to be.” I just can’t see our current Federal government doing the right thing out of the goodness of their own hearts, any Socialism in the future is nothing more than a Trojan horse, with evil intent hidden in the fine print. 

This generation’s “faith in government” will never be regained, perhaps the next.”

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